Lets talk baseball

That video says it all.

long toss is an essential part in a pitchers progress. even though ROCKBASE is stuck under a rock on this point. long toss not only strenghtens a pitchers arms it also it enlogates the muscles on the pitchers arms. maybe you never played baseball in your life or you have no idea what ur talking about or finally you spent too much time on your computer trying to figure out the game of baseball.

pitching is 90 percent mental. if a pitcher in highschool has confidence and thinks he can beat any team, then there is no doubt in my mind that he will. or pitch a great game and keep the team in the game..

I think a coach can find out about a pitcher by watching him pitch. how does he act act when there are 2 outs and no one on base. how adoes he act with runners on scoring position with one out. not how he throws a pitch but, how his mound presence looks like in these siutuations.

pitching and defense wins championships.

ninja - I didn't mean to upset you with MY opinion. You can believe whatever you want to about my resume but there is really not a need to get mean about it. You still haven't given me hard evidence that long toss assists with gaining velocity. You might as well be a body builder then if the strongest arm pitches the best.
I don't understand where your next couple of statement were going. I guess you are correct about a pitchers mental aspect. You definitely want a guy who will compete when tough situations arise.

Unlike Penn Live at times, lets try to keep this site more positive. Ninja, I've been watching the combat pitchers DVDs that a coach lent me and they bring up some good points. He does not believe in long distance running for pitchers (his comment was if long distance helped pitchers than Ethiopians would be the best pitchers). He also stated that why would a pitcher long toss like an outfielder. Outfielders don't go on the mound to get better arms. My team is doing alot of explosive throwing inside and I think thats strengthening our arms, mine included at 50. The experts on long toss stress throwing more on a line. Todays Hs athlete throws long toss more up in the air. Rock has some question marks on long toss and many of us do too. I'm training my team to become efficient hitters because most HS players are very inefficient. Its working better every day. If a major leaguer can hit from a better posture and connection then why can't a HS player. SAME with throwing. You have to believe in what your doing but if your being taught from someone who hasn't increased his knowledge over the past 20 years than your behind. I learn something new everyday. You have to. There are many experts out there who understand how the body works best and that training makes them a better teacher of what is best for an athlete. Players didn't have that. I was a streetball learner. I'm now a coach who doesn't stop learning and I know its starting to reflect in my players. Believe what ya want !! But don't stop learning.
www.combatpitching.com www.englishbeyhitting.com theres 2 sites that will help you.

This is a little better explanation of Jaeger Long Toss Philosophy

[url=Long Toss / China]Long Toss[/url]

This arguement is like alot of arguements in pitching...there's no hard fast black and white answer. I know some coaches that utilize long toss as an arm strengthening tool for pitchers. I know some who don't. Dick Mills, former MLB pitcher and now internet pitching guru does not like long toss, or weighted balls or flat ground throwing....nothing except specific mound throwing. Most things in pitching are like that...if it works for you go with it. As long as you research it, analyze it, disect it for snake oil claims because we know there are alot of frauds looking to shag your money. And they don't care about the health of your arm.

I like a little long toss as long as you stay within your mechanics. A little weighted ball program don't hurt (4 , 5 , 6 oz), flatground, short throwing and some out of season lifting especially in the lower half. But FLEXIBILITY is the key IMO. You gotta be flexible. But what do I know.......

Hey ROCKBASE. I want to apologize . I got a little carried away and over passionate about my opinion. I didn't mean to question your resume.
Thanks.

There are a lot of people that are huge believers in long toss, and on the other hand there are a lot of people that dislike it.

WilliamSmith: Research on weighted balls has proven a lot of injuries especially in under developed arms such as highs school kids. The key to create velocity is arm speed. The faster the arm speed the harder one throws. A weighted ball not only slows down arm speed, but puts a lot of stress on the rotator cuff muscles and the labrum. Yeah after you throw a weighted ball players grab a regular baseball and feel like they can throw it through the catcher. In reality they are not throwing harder. A weighted ball is just another scheme to make money.

Ninja411

Quote :

Research on weighted balls has proven a lot of injuries especially in under developed arms such as highs school kids.

Could you post references for this research?

I base my opinion on other experienced or educated professionals, for example:

Dr. Glenn Fleisig, American Sports Medicine Institution reknown for biomechanical research in pitchers and inury prevention says this about weighted balls:

Quote :

Training Pitchers with Overweight and Underweight Baseballs

Escamilla RF, Speer KP, Fleisig GS, Barrentine SW, Andrews JR. Effects of throwing overweight and underweight baseballs on throwing velocity and accuracy. Sports Medicine 29(4):259-272, 2000.

A review was conducted to determine how throwing overweight and underweight baseballs affects baseball throwing velocity and accuracy. Two studies were found that examined how warming up with overweight baseballs affected throwing velocity and accuracy of 5 oz regulation baseballs. One of these studies showed significant increases in throwing velocity and accuracy, while the other study found no significant differences. Three training studies (6-12 weeks in duration) using overweight baseballs were conducted to determine how they affected ball accuracy while throwing regulation baseballs. No significant differences were found in any study. From these data it is concluded that warming up or training with overweight baseballs does not improve ball accuracy.

Seven overweight and four underweight training studies (6 - 12 weeks in duration) were conducted to determine how throwing velocity of regulation baseballs was affected due to training with these overweight and underweight baseballs. The overweight baseballs ranged in weight between 5.25-17 oz, while the underweight baseballs were between 4-4.75 oz. Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs.

Future research is needed to determine what effect, if any, training with overweight and underweight baseballs has on risk of injury. In addition, research should be initiated to determine whether throwing kinematics and kinetics are different between throwing regulation baseballs and throwing overweight and underweight baseballs.

Copyright 2000, American Sports Medicine Institute
March 13, 2007

Steven Ellis, former Professional baseball pitcher:

Quote :

Here's the weighted baseball throwing program I used in the off-season both while pitching at Division 1 Bradley University of the Missouri Valley Conference and in the Chicago Cubs organization. My velocity sat around 93-94 mph.

Some important notes should be mentioned first, however:




This is strictly an off-season workout.

You'll need a 4, 5 and 6 oz baseball. Do not exceed 6 ounces.

I performed this program for 2 months, 2 times a week in the off-season. But when I reached the point in my off-season throwing program where I moved onto the pitcher's mound for bullpen work, I stopped the weighted baseball program. (Too much stress on the arm. Trust me, you'll feel it!)

When you're good and warm and ready to start the weighted baseball throwing, you should throw "all out." (Again, which is why you should be good and warm before starting.)



The Complete Pitcher's Weighted Baseball Throwing Program

1. Five minute light jog

2. Full body stretch (dynamic stretching is preferable)

3. My 10-Minute Long-Toss Throwing Program

a. Throw at 60-feet for 3 min
b. Throw at 90-feet for 3 min
c. Throw at 120-feet for 3 min
d. Throw at 60-feet for 1 min

4. My Weighted Baseball Throwing Program

a. 6 oz. 20 throws @ 70 feet
b. 4 oz. 20 throws @ 70 feet
c. 5 oz. 20 throws @ 70 feet

and

Dr. John Bagonzi, former pitcher Boston Red Sox

Quote :

WEIGHTED BALLS


Weighted balls have long been a part of my pitching scene. I feel this is one of the fastest ways to increase arm speed and velocity. Weighted balls come in the following:



Red (7.5 oz) for 10 –12 yrs
Green (9 oz) for 13 – 14 yrs
Blue (10 oz) for 15 – 165 yrs
Yellow (11 oz) for 17 yrs
Black (12 oz) for 18+ yrs
(A regular baseball is 5 – 5.25 oz)



The sequence of throwing (utilizing the Stride Drill) is:



15 times, every other one hard (weighted ball) – get about 40 –50 ft. apart (keeping back leg back).
10 times, every other one hard (regular ball) – keeping back leg back.
10 times, every other one hard (weighted ball) – keeping back leg back.
10 times, every other one hard (regular ball) – bring back leg around.
This is a total of 45 throws. The first three phases (1, 2 and 3) should have the back leg staying back – This isolates the overload more to the arm – on the fourth session the back leg can come around. Note: on No. 2 – the first few throws may go into the ground because the release point has been lowered – this quickly goes away.



Another overload exercise that is useful is utilizing the wrist drill to throw 10 with weighted and 10 with regular to speed up the wrist. In all instances with the weighted ball every other one should be delivered crisply. Notice I haven’t said real hard. This program should be every other day. It can be alternated or mixed with long tossing on a 6-day-a week basis.

My own personal experience:

Quote :

My son, who is eighteen, uses weighted balls (4, 5 an 6 oz ) while warming up after running and stretching first. He only uses them for (forearm/wrist) drills thrown a distance of only a few feet. He might also throw a few warm up pitches at a distance of 15 or 20 feet and with about 30% effort so that his mechanics are not changed.

I have always been very cautious with the use of weighted balls because it seems just having them around tempts players to use them inappropriately risking injury.

By observation only I'd say they definitely help increase velocity by increasing arm speed. Accuracy in the long run isn't affected however you might notice the pitcher throwing regulation balls low immediately after throwing a weighted ball.

I agree, arm speed is key. I'm not sure I agree that arm speed is decreased with use of weighted balls. A weighted ball might be a money making scheme but most everything is. I still think they are of value if used properly. Again it is a debate that will not be resolved. I hope this clarifies my thoughts on this subject.

I have a quiz on all the pitching guys in the area and your not allowed to google it. kidding. ok. everyone in the forum please feel free to participate.


Please put these in oder. When a pitcher throws a fastball what is the most important thing. the most important will be #1 and so forth.

1. Velocity

2. location

3. movement

Thanks for participating.

A ranking 1 through 3 won't do this discussion justice.

For example :

1. Location
2. Movement
3. Velocity

You can argue the relative unimportance of velocity. Problem is it changes depending on what level your are discussing or where you are in the pitch sequence in an at bat.

For instance, at any level pure velocity can dominate the game. The higher you go the less this is true. For example, any high school pitcher in western PA that can throw 88-90 mph around the plate doesn't have to worry much about movement. He doesn't have to have pinpoint location or change-up or curveball. Just blow it by them.

As the velocity decreases, it becomes more important for location and movement to be in the mix.

If you ask a high school 11th grade pitcher aspiring to play DI college baseball what's more important, you'll get "velocity." The average rising junior pitcher in the WPIAL showcase for the past two years, threw 82 mph! Granted, there were a few of the elite that didn't attend but they were probably already communicating with DI programs. If you are not left handed and want to pitch in a good DI program, you better run it up there around 85+ mph as a junior and add a few more in your senior year. Oh yeah, and have the grades. If we are talking college pitchers here, then #1 would be grades.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with chosing DII, DIII, NAIA and especially the JUCO scene. Velocity will have it's relative importance at any level. That's why if you surf all the internet forums on pitching you'll find that despite all the lip service about location and movement (Greg Maddux) etc., easily 3/4 of the discussion is developing a better fastball through improved mechanics and training.

IMO

Sv coach: I can talk about baseball all day. I started the thread on hitting and pitching to get people talking about this wonderful sport. I mean no disrespect to you instead I admire the way you approach teaching the game. It is always good to start a conversation on baseball even though at times it seemed like you are being attacked. I was surprised that so many people were looking at what we were talking about and were afraid to comment or share their opinions. A good example is on the last Lets talk baseball thread I tried to get a lot of people involved by asking a pitching question, but I think William Smith ruined it by writing the perfect answer (lol). This site is great because we can disagree with out being disagreeable. There is no right way of learning how to hit or pitch, as long as the fundamental are correct then the players will continue to get better. I just got back from a business trip and couldn’t respond to your comments, but my name is John Warner. I played high school baseball in North Dakota and played college ball at cal state Fullerton. I know reside in Milcreek with my wife Mary.

Sounds good Ninja. No disrespect taken. I guess we all can agree that were passionate about a great game that in our area needs a boost to keep kids in the game. I would like to have some free clinics for youth players as well as coaches with all the D-10 coaches participating. I'm a Dad who became a coach and I want to pass that information along to those who are just starting out like I did to keep pursuing the best information you can find whether its on the VG1 Cyber network, books, clinics, listening to TV broadcasters who coached/played or DVD's. There is a reason that some kids are way better than others. One major one is a parent/guardian/friend took that time at a young age to start working with there kid. I'm 50 played daily as a kid at Gridley Park with many kids. We played fastpitch with a rubber ball against a building when we only had 3 or 4 kids. I still live in the area I grew up in and I'm glad to coach kids at SV who are in my area still but, as I ride by Gridley every day I have the great memories of my youth but am saddened that the parks are now empty.

If you'd like to meet and talk some ball send me a pm. I don't stop seeking advice or giving it. Its a passion.

Ninja maybe i'll talk some baseball with you later, cyber is to much, later.