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ninja411



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PostSubject: Lets talk baseball   Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:39 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:04 am

I moved this topic.

To answer the 2nd question, it depends on the coach. There are some coaches, such as the ones at HC, Mcdowell, and the former Prep coach, that will rarely use is, for various reasons.

Mcdowell is most likely because they have so much talent year in and year out, that when your facing East and Central every other game, that it's not worth spending the time to teach it. It's a lot more productive, and least in some coach's eyes, to hit in BP, take infield, etc. They generally do it a lot more at the junior legion level than at the high school level.

Some coaches, such as the former Prep one, would rather wait for the 3 run blast. Their theory seemed to be to give as many cuts as possible to their starters during practice and hope they learn to hit the ball out of the park.

Their are other schools in the area, such as Mercyhurst Prep that live and die by the hit and run, bunts, etc. They perfect it, which can be directly attributed to their coach, who I believe is one of the tops in the district.

Then you have coaches who would love to hit and run, but can't waste an out on a kid missing the sign or swinging through the pitch.


For the first question.

It depends on the coach and his confidence in their pitchers.

Some coaches would rather have the game in their hands. They feel like they can get a grasp on what a hitter is doing and his tendencies in game.

There are also some coaches who have in depth scouting reports on the other teams hitters. Now, there's two ways these coaches will go with this-one is that they'll keep the reports right in front of them, and they'll adjust in game. Others will gather their info, let their pitchers and catchers have this info, and then let them work from there.

Another way to go is to let pitchers that believe have a solid grasp on the game to call their own pitches, while other players, usually ones with limited experience, they'll call the pitchers.

Other coaches will just let the pitchers pitch.

The most efficient way, in my opinion, is this:
A coach gathers his info on a particular team, and relays it to his players. He calls the pitches, but the pitchers can shake him off if he feels comfortable with a particular pitch. The catcher looks at the coach a second time. If he gives the same sign, based on his notes, that is the pitch thrown. If not, the pitcher throws what he wants.


But to get back to your point, I don't believe that it is necessarily a lack of faith in their pitchers/catchers. I think some coaches just feel like them calling pitches gives them the best chance to win, which is the ultimate goal.
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rockbase
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:04 am

Those are very concise answers to questions I hear talked about everywhere in HS baseball. It is very true that it depends on the coaching staff whether a team learns to hit and run or employs the practice of it. This also goes for calling pitches.

The hit and run depends on your talent level also. Calling pitches assumes that your pitcher can put the ball where you (coach) want it. I really like your way of game planning prior to the contest then go along with the opportunity for change. The pitcher should have the final say. He has the ball in his hand.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:31 pm

rockbase wrote:
Calling pitches assumes that your pitcher can put the ball where you (coach) want it. I really like your way of game planning prior to the contest then go along with the opportunity for change. The pitcher should have the final say. He has the ball in his hand.

One of the things I don't like about the pitcher always having the final say is that certain pitchers might not be the smartest pitcher in the world. There are also a lot of pitchers who think they are a lot smarter than they actually are and would have no clue how to set a batter up. That said, there are pitchers who could set someone up in their sleep.
2nd point-What happens when you get a macho pitcher who thinks he can blow it by everybody? Then you get them throwing 5 straight fastballs to a player who wouldn't touch any type of junk.
3rd-It may or may not take a little bit of pressure off of a pitcher when he doesn't have to think of what pitch he's throwing next.

However, there are a lot of reasons to let the pitcher have the final say. I think it just comes down to the situation of the pitcher and coach.
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ninja411



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PostSubject: Lets talk baseball   Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:19 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:49 am

I am a believer that the coach is the "educator" of the game and not the controller of the game. If a pitcher doesn't know how to set up a hitter then the coach hasn't taught it to the pitcher. This should also cure the head strong pitcher with the live fastball who wants to use it all the time. The pitcher would never learn and the catcher would never learn to call pitches either. You want the pitcher to think not just be a video game character waiting for his next instructions.

Players do benefit from year round practice but not full time practice. Especially in high school, players can get burnt out quickly if all they do, think, is baseball. Play as many sports as possible. Swing when you can, throw a bullpen session when you can.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:12 pm

ninja411 wrote:
I guess it doesn' matter who calls the pitches. It all comes down to executing the pitch. I think if a pitcher hits his spots and changes speeds and keeps the ball down then for the most part good things are going to happen.


Exactly.

ninja411 wrote:
as far as the hit and run I think all coaches should teach that. Even if you are a coach that sits there waiting for the 3 run bomb. it should still be important cause there will be some close games where a hit and run with a good runner and a good contact hitter can get you man on 1rst and 3rd with 0 outs or 1 out in a tight game. That could be the difference between a win and a loss. Also coaches can have the kids work on it during batting practice. Just working on hitting the ball the other way on the ground.


I completely agree that coaches need to teach that part of the game. It should be part of every teams strategy, but it isn't. It's not that hard to practice-like you said, just add it to your BP routine. The bigger schools around here kind of have the excuse that they don't need it to win, but there are so many county schools that could use it to their advantage, but don't. It's a part of the game that hasn't really been taught around here.

ninja411 wrote:

I have another question. Do you think the talent around this area could be better if the players practiced year round. I know its hard because of the weather here but maybe go someplace indoors and get some practice going. Maybe take some batting practice.

Yes and no. There are many schools that practice from February to June, and then are off the rest of the time. Those teams obviously need to practice more. Then there are teams that go year round. That's too much in my opinion. As much as I'd like to see everyone practicing year round, you just can't physically do it-you'll wear down. However, I do believe that all schools around here need to start to lift a little bit more. That's one thing that seems to be true about Erie schools-were just physically smaller than the players in say the WPIAL.

There is one thing that I believes limits the talent level in Erie. About a year ago, there was an articles in the Times News about kids choosing one sport, and McDowell QB/RB AJ Fenton was basically one of the features. He was asked about why he chose football over say baseball, and he said (I'm paraphrasing here) something about how it's Erie and how your not going to go anywhere for baseball. Which, to an extent, is true. What we need is for every team to step up. If that happens, you can get the better teams having to play good teams game in and game out. If that doesn't happen, then players at schools such as Prep or McDowell will continue to believe that they can just skate on by with doing no work, which they can. They have one big game a year, and then they have a cake walk the rest of the time. If they were pushed, they would get better. And then some of the other school would be forced to continue to climb to meet that level, and that is the only way, in my opinion, you can get the talent level in Erie up. If you set the overall bar higher in Erie, then there will be a lot more scouts checking out games. If players start getting heavily recruited for baseball, then you may start getting the better athletes, such as Fenton, which will again raise the bar. Look at the WPIAL-there's so many good teams and good players that you actually have to work in the off season, which means that they players are better, which helps bring in the scouts. Playing year round is not going to help if your only facing a decent pitcher once in a blue moon.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:20 pm

rockbase wrote:
I am a believer that the coach is the "educator" of the game and not the controller of the game. If a pitcher doesn't know how to set up a hitter then the coach hasn't taught it to the pitcher. This should also cure the head strong pitcher with the live fastball who wants to use it all the time. The pitcher would never learn and the catcher would never learn to call pitches either. You want the pitcher to think not just be a video game character waiting for his next instructions.

You can teach the pitchers all you want about setting up a hitter, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work or that they'll do it. And unless you have an extremely smart pitcher, they're not going to remember all of the scouting reports or remember what happened in the hitters last AB.

As for the head strong pitcher, these are 15-18 year old kids, and there's going to be some macho men out there who always want to throw that fastball or "amazing" off speed pitch.

In the end, I just believe that it's a fine line with how much responsibility you want to give to a High School pitcher. Give them too much, they'll explode, give them too little, they'll never learn.



rockbase wrote:
Players do benefit from year round practice but not full time practice. Especially in high school, players can get burnt out quickly if all they do, think, is baseball. Play as many sports as possible. Swing when you can, throw a bullpen session when you can.

QFT
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ninja411



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PostSubject: Lets talk baseball   Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:07 pm

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SVCOACH28



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PostSubject: ONE BIG GAME NO MORE..........   Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:15 am

Prep has moved to the AAA level this year. I've had 2 sons play for Prep when they were AAAA and now I coach SV which is AAA and had a good look at some of the AAA schools last season. I think the AAA level is quite competitive and come playoff time will be a great challenge for those teams that get there. McDowell will be a solid team this year at the AAAA level.

Regarding the One Big Game theory in the past...........who knows. It did come down to all the marbles for a long time but I remember where Meadville was the team to beat to advance at the AAAA level. Prep did make a great showing a few years ago advancing to the Western Final I believe.

Who knows why this is the case. Thanks to Mr. Braendel we at least get a chance to work out indoors in the winter. I don't really know the indoor facilities or field situations from the other schools in the colder months but to advance you need good execution and some pretty good pitching come playoff time.

I'm in a challenging situation at Strong Vincent and were building with a lot of younger players coming into the program. My background of training and hard work will hopefully pay off in the future because we need that to compete. ALL TEAMS DO. For the most part my guys are responding well.

We need to start building a solid foundation for youth baseball in the area, especially the inner city area. Times have changed. Coaches of other sports want there players concentrating on that sport and I feel Baseball gets hurt the most from this. Travel Teams take away from the Youth Leagues as well as some of the Legion Programs, but for several reasons Travel Teams exist because of politics in the Legion System. In Pittsburgh I believe the Palomino League is very competitive baseball. I coached some Prep Summer Teams and traveled there and faced great competition. Its the sign of the times. If we don't start teaching better at a younger age and find ways to make the game exciting at the intro level then we'll continue to struggle in the sport we all love.

Baseball is Failure. If a player can't accept failure they quit and thus younger kids playing ball diminishes, especially in the inner city. We need to build on that first and then we can start talking about State Championships.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:53 am

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:54 am

ninja411 wrote:
Admin Wrote:
then players at schools such as Prep or McDowell will continue to believe that they can just skate on by with doing no work, which they can. They have one big game a year, and then they have a cake walk the rest of the time.

do you think this is the reason why those teams make it to the state playoffs and get their butts handed to them right away?. I don't understand why these teams think they are such power houses. then they go to the state playoffs and run into a team that has the same amount of talent as they do and get killed. In my opinion you can't beat teams that are just as good as you if you don't put in the work. let alone teams that are better that you. They will get out-executed. out-hussled and out-played. I don't know though maybe they are just happy winning a D10 title.

in my opinion why not get these kids mentally, physically and fundamentally ready to compete for a state title year in and year out instead of getting them ready for one big game a year.
thanks



I agree with everything you said 100%. These teams are fine with wining a D10 title. They could care less about any games not against Prep or Mcdowell. That's why I was glad when I heard Prep was dropping to AAA. It switched their mind set from D10 title to State Title. Obviously I don't mean that they have the talent pool yet to win a state title, but now I think their probably more looking to state titles than D10 titles where they have to win one game to get. If they continue to believe that they can get by with their current work ethic their screwed. The mind sets have been wrong in those two programs for awhile.

And I don't think that you can consider McDowell and Prep powerhouses. Mcdowell lost to NE last year, who was 2nd in the district in AA, and Prep has gone into extra innings the last two years with sub par AAA Harborcreek teams.

However, I am looking forward to some rumors that I'm hearing about the Prep baseball team running a McDonalds Classic type tournament where they have 3 teams from the WPIAL or other powers come up to Ainsworth to play. It looks like a step in the right direction.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:02 am

SVCOACH28 wrote:

I'm in a challenging situation at Strong Vincent and were building with a lot of younger players coming into the program. My background of training and hard work will hopefully pay off in the future because we need that to compete. ALL TEAMS DO. For the most part my guys are responding well.

We need to start building a solid foundation for youth baseball in the area, especially the inner city area. Times have changed. Coaches of other sports want there players concentrating on that sport and I feel Baseball gets hurt the most from this. Travel Teams take away from the Youth Leagues as well as some of the Legion Programs, but for several reasons Travel Teams exist because of politics in the Legion System. In Pittsburgh I believe the Palomino League is very competitive baseball. I coached some Prep Summer Teams and traveled there and faced great competition. Its the sign of the times. If we don't start teaching better at a younger age and find ways to make the game exciting at the intro level then we'll continue to struggle in the sport we all love.

Baseball is Failure. If a player can't accept failure they quit and thus younger kids playing ball diminishes, especially in the inner city. We need to build on that first and then we can start talking about State Championships.


Yes, Yes, Yes! It will take coaches such as you that have a lot of knowledge of the game, is willing to work with the players, and will stress working hard at it to make D10 competitive at the state level. You have enough athletes at Vincent that at some point I see you being able to turn that program into one of the best in the area- I look forward to seeing what it become is a couple of years.

And I couldn't agree more about building from the youth on up. It's a good point about how baseball is failure-it's so much different than many other sports.

However, I would like to see more travel teams in this area. I believe that's the only way you can see the best competition is by diving into the Cleveland and Pittsburgh areas.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:37 am

Yes,
I believe Prep is bringing in 2 quality opponents to play at the Uht and frankly its a great idea. McDowell will be the other team. John Frey from the Seawolves is very supportive doing this at the Uht and in talking with some of the Prep coaches they want to get the attention of college coaches to see the talent as well. My SV team will be playing one of those teams in Pittsburgh as well if all things work out.

I don't think anyone around here can be considered a powerhouse. The D-10 baseball area has some great programs and frankly if you put a pitcher on the mound who can dominate I don't care what level your at, you'll win.

Many coaches around here have to think about there classification and there playoff chances so you may not pitch your top 2 guys facing an independent opponent because you have to SAVE them so to speak. Harbor Creek has played Prep tough and many others because they had some guys who could keep you in games on the mound and just went out and competed just like Corry, Warren, Grove City, Sharon, Hickory etc.....can't take anyone for granted. Baseball is very different from Football or Basketball which is why its a great game.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:43 am

That sounds like it'll be a great tournament at the Uht. Good luck to SV if you do in fact face one of the Pittsburgh teams.


As for not throwing your best against teams not in your class, I think that works against a team such as HC or NE a lot more than a Mcdowell or a Prep. For one, Prep and Mcdowell will (generally) have better number 3 and 4 options. #2-they only had to beat one team (I think Central) to get to the playoffs.
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ninja411



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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:58 am

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PostSubject: pitching   Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:17 am

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PostSubject: PITCHING..............   Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:17 am

I'm viewing some information from Combat Pitching and you will see some training and pitching information that may be quite different from what many teach there players now. Its similar to what I've learned on hitting from Steve Englishbey that there are many things that the top ballplayers do that we had no idea they did. If your coaching like what you were taught then you'll be behind the curve. I'm 50 and never stop learning.
www.combatpitching.com
www.englishbeyhitting.com

the above are a start.

I don't just use the combat drills with my pitchers. It has and will help all my players throw better. ALL my hitters are learning the High Level Swing.

BOTH will be taught at my SV clinic that starts Jan. 10th. On the 11th the HITTING portion starts. Its all the High Level Swing and will help ANY player, baseball and softball, become a much better hitter. I don't care what school they go to or plan to go to. This will be the only time I can teach it because its all SV after that. I've taught this to youth, high school and college players, not just my sons.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:30 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:10 am

I totally agree with the idea of using "Combat" training for some sort of workout, but to address pitching, I was a little skeptical by just watching their recruitment video. I also believe the best way to get better at pitching is to pitch. Not throwing a towel or balancing on some piece of wood for 3 minutes. Those drills make players great towel snappers and acrobats not pitchers.
Never was a great fan of long tossing for pitchers. Kids rarely use their mechanics properly and I've seen young kids trying to fling the ball 300 feet. Great that makes you an outfielder. Concentrate on the 60'6" and never more than 120.
You are absolutely right about baseball instruction being a multi-million dollar business. Unfortunately, just like automobiles, you have to wade through them all and hopefully not get a lemon.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:29 am

Honestly, I don't know how a pitcher would be able to get by WITHOUT longtoss, RockBase. I think that it's essential to any pitchers regimen so that you can strengthen your arm and keep it conditioned. Your not going to be able to pitch every day, and throwing the ball at 60% at 120 feet just won't do it imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:08 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:38 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:34 am

How does longtossing strengthen a pitchers arm? I have never had anyone give a credible answer to that simple question. Why does a pitcher's arm have to be strong anyway? A pitcher generates very little velocity with his arm. If he does then we say "He's throwing with all arm".
The fastball should be developed. Spots first then velocity. I just don't know how a young pitcher is supposed to do this if he is long tossing all the time. A pitcher would do this in his bullpen sessions going 100%
To clarify my point on the towel drill and "getting your arm out in front". Where else is the arm going to be and the kids that have pitched long enough with their elbows extended like the towel experiment teaches their bodies to do have made the Tommy John surgery a household name.
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk baseball   Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:04 am

A pitcher may not gain it directly from the long toss, but I think it's one of the key components.

ie something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y36uzv58Wsk&feature=related
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